Proceedings on 5 August 1974, Session 2
(session starts after break)
(Session re-convened at 6 pm with the Speaker, Sahibzada Farooq Ali, presiding)
Chairman: Some members think that the witness avoids some questions. It has been suggested that a new question should not be asked until the witness answers the first question correctly or refuses to answer.
Attorney-General: We cannot compel the witness. From whatever answer the witness provides, you can deduce whether it is the right answer, an avoidance or a refusal to answer. You can deduce this result from his answer, but you cannot bind him to answer in a correct manner. A court decides based on the testimony of a witness, and if he is fooling around in the testimony, it goes against him.
Chairman: The delegation should be called in. (Delegation enters)
Attorney-General: Mirza Sahib, members have drawn attention to certain matters that need clarification — first, the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan: the signed memorandum presented by the Ahmadis to the Boundary Commission in 1947 mentions the number of the Ahmadi sect in 1947 as 200,000 and you said in the morning that the number of Ahmadis in 1908 was 400,000. Was the former number wrong, or did you wrongly state the latter number?
Mirza Nasir: Do you have the document?
Attorney-General: Here you go.
Mirza Nasir: After looking (silent) there is nothing to be gained by this but numbers and statistics. Even if five men are illegally wronged, it is still as wrong.
Attorney-General: I am not saying that it is legal to wrong a few people. As we are creating a record here, I wanted us to have the exact or almost exact number of Ahmadis in Pakistan. It is OK, don’t worry, I will follow the second matter: In 1901, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad requested the government to count the Ahmadis separately in the census, and then this was repeated in 1911 and 1913.
Mirza Nasir: No census figure is right.
Attorney-General: Even if it is not right, I want to determine why the census was discontinued after 1913. Did you request the government to not count you separately or did the government do so by itself?
Mirza Nasir: I do not know why it was so.
Attorney-General: Another clarification is required. You said this morning that your followers call you “Imam Jama’at” [Imam of the community] but your title is “Khalifatul Masi h the Third”. Please clarify the significance of the word “Imam” — in what meaning do they call you “Imam”?
Mirza Nasir: I have not asked them to call me “Imam” or “Amirul Mumineen” [Leader of the Faithful]. It is not commonly used in our community but the in the usage in Pakistan, it is the leader of the faithful – those who took the “bai’at” [pledge].
Attorney-General: I wish to remind you that when you came for your speech before this house, you interrupted the Chairman and corrected him by saying that you were the “Imam” of your community.
Mirza Nasir: I said, do not call me “Sadr Anjuman Ahmadiyya” [president of the Ahmadiyya Association, a term that also means 'Central Ahmadiyya Association], I should be called “Imam Jama’at”. I had “head of the community” in my mind.
Attorney-General: This is why I needed the clarification.
Mirza Nasir: Yes, yes – I said exactly that. I remember, I remember very well.
Attorney-General: Now the next point which I wanted to know in the morning was that in your capacity as head, Khalifa or Imam, can you resign your post, or are you allowed to resign?
Mirza Nasir: This office is given by Allah the Exalted and thus it is not permitted.
Attorney-General: If you are declared non-Muslims, does the legislature have the right to do so?
Mirza Nasir: Our rights will be affected by it.
Attorney-General: Your rights will be protected by declaring you a minority.
Mirza Nasir: If this is the case, then we do not want the protection of our rights.
Attorney-General: There are other minorities as well, and their rights are protected?
Mirza Nasir: It will be a blemish on Pakistan that such resolutions are passed here. We love our country.
Attorney-General: Protecting your rights will cause a blemish?
Mirza Nasir: After all, what is the use of doing so?
Attorney-General: What is your objection to it?
Mirza Nasir: What objective will be gained by declaring us Kafirs?
Attorney-General: I ask you, how will it affect you?
Mirza Nasir: We will not be treated fairly.
Attorney-General: I ask you, that according to the opinion on the declaration of Human Rights, there is no question that can be raised?
Mirza Nasir: Solid, truthful reasoning is that no one has the right to call me a non-Muslim.
Attorney-General: This morning you said that an authority can declare as such.
Mirza Nasir: That was another matter.
Attorney-General: You said in your speech of 21 June: ‘Allah the Exalted will Himself specify who is a mumin and who is a kafir.’ Now you announce that ‘I am a Muslim’. A third person says that you are not a Muslim. There is one announcement by you and another by a third person. How does saying this interfere with your basic rights? If we accept what you say, then it is OK, otherwise it is an interference in your rights. I need clarification on this.
Mirza Nasir: We will not be angry iat all f you say so.
Attorney-General: If the legislature says so, then?
Mirza Nasir: Why should the government interfere?
Attorney-General: You said in the morning that an authority or a court could distinguish between a Muslim and a non-Muslim.
Mirza Nasir: I must have said it in the morning from another viewpoint. (Laughter) People declare each other Kafir, but should behave in a pleasant way . . .
Attorney-General: The same pleasantness that you expect, you should also be mindful of it. You said that if Mr. Butto or Mufti Mahhmood or Maulana Maudoodi . . .
Mirza Nasir: I meant Mr. Bhutto as a member of the People’s Party, not as Prime Minister.
Attorney-General: It is the same thing: if he says “Kafir” — there is no difference whether he is the People’s Party’s Butto or the Prime Minister.
Mirza Nasir: There is a difference.
Attorney-General: OK, let us leave Mr. Bhutto. Mufti Mahmood does not have the right to call you [a Kafir] but you have the right?
Mirza Nasir: Even I do not have the right in that manner.
Attorney-General: In which manner do you have the right?
Mirza Nasir: Leave that . . .
Attorney-General: Does the Ahmadiyya sect believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Messenger of God?
Mirza Nasir: No.
Attorney-General: Was he a prophet?
Mirza Nasir: This is also not our belief, but rather an “ummati nabi” [prophet within the Muslim Nation]
Attorney-General: What is the concept of “ummati”?
Mirza Nasir: That is, a member of the nation of Huzur (peace be on him) [Prophet Muhammad]. One who is dyed in his hue.
Attorney-General: Can an “ummati” keep his own “ummat”? [make his own nation]
Mirza Nasir: There is one nation after Huzur (peace be on him) and that is the nation of Muhammad.
Attorney-General: A separate ummat [nation] cannot be formed?
Mirza Nasir: I did not say that.
Attorney-General: What is the difference between a legislating prophet and a non-legislating prophet?
Mirza Nasir: A legislative prophet is he on whom a “shariat” [Law] descends, non-legislative is one who makes others follow a previous “shariat”.
Attorney-General: Will a denier of a non-legislative be a Kafir or not?
Mirza Nasir: Kafir means one who denies, so yes he will be.
Attorney-General: Mirza Sahib was a non-legilative, so will his denier be a Kafir?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, he will be a denier, a Kafir in the dictionary . . .
Attorney-General: A person who denies any one of the Messengers sent by God does not remain a Muslim?
Mirza Nasir: He is culpable before God, but in the worldly sense, according to the political definition of Muslim, he is a Kafir.
Attorney-General: I am talking about your community.
Mirza Nasir: Yes, according to us also.
Attorney-General: That is, Kafir?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, in other words, Kafir.
Attorney-General: So, in other words, all humans except your community are Kafirs?
Mirza Nasir: We respect the status of humanity.
Attorney-General: But not in the sphere of Islam, but in the sphere of humanity?
Mirza Nasir: I do not understand, my fault.
Attorney-General: I am talking about, “who does not believe in Mirza is outside the circle of Islam”
Mirza Nasir: Outside the circle of Islam and Kafir. This has two meanings: one, in the sight of Allah the Exalted which He has to decided and no other can do that; second, political.
Attorney-General: So, the circle of Islam is of two types, political and non-political?
Mirza Nasir: Yes
Attorney-General: Definition of a political Muslim?
Mirza Nasir: That I wrote in my brief.
Chairman: Leave this, ask the next question.
Attorney-General: Recently, your community in England passed a resolution regarding the Rabwah incident. I have a copy that says, “because non-Ahmadi Pakistanis have unleashed oppression and tyranny on Ahmadi Muslims across the breadth and length of Pakistan . . . “
Mirza Nasir: non-Ahmadi Pakistanis in Pakistan.
Attorney-General: Who are non-Ahmadi Pakistanis? They call themselves Ahmadiyya Muslim; but who are these people who are the wrongdoers? Who are these non-Ahmadi Pakistanis?
Mirza Nasir: I do not know, I have not seen it and it is the first time I am hearing this. There should have been the word, “non-Ahmadi Pakistani Muslim” here.
Attorney-General: So, your people usually address Muslims as non-Muslim . . . please clarify this.
Mirza Nasir: Please give me a copy.
Attorney-General: It is in the newspapers also.
Mirza Nasir: Newspapers report wrongly, I will verify it.
Chairman: Before the delegation departs, one point needs clarification. A question was asked but the answer was not clear: regarding the word “kafir” as a Muslim understands it, does it mean that a kafir is he who is not a Muslim?
Mirza Nasir: He is not an Ahmadiyya Muslim.
Chairman: He is not a Muslim. This points needs clarification. The delegation can leave.
(The delegation left until 8 pm.)
(Delegation came back after Maghrib prayers)
Attorney-General: We are trying to clarify “Kafir”. You said regarding a Muslim and Kafir that these are political definitions.
Mirza Nasir: Political and otherwise. It has its own circle of Islam and it remains inside it according to the political definition.
Attorney-General: And in the other definition, it does not?
Mirza Nasir: That is related to Allah the Exalted, not related to the world.
Attorney-General: When you will call someone a Kafir in our society, what effect will that have on the public? A member of your Jama’at says, ‘that person is a kafir, the other person is a kafir’ – what effect will that have on a Muslim – is that person outside the circle of Islam or is he still within the boundaries of Islam?
Mirza Nasir: I have never used this world in my Khilafat.
Attorney-General: The Ahmadiyya community calls others Kafir. For example, your father, who was also the head of the Ahmadiyya sect . . .
Mirza Nasir: He must have said it before 1958.
Attorney-General: So, did he consider opponents as Kafir?
Mirza Nasir: This thing is not dear to Allah the Exalted.
Attorney-General: Are they Muslims or not? — “I am a sinner, kafir I am not” [Urdu poetery] – if I do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, am I a sinner or a kafir in your eyes?
Mirza Nasir: You are a denier of Mirza. The dictionary definition of Kufr is denier. So, can you say you accept while you are not accepting?
Attorney-General: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad lived and people saw him and no one is disputing that he existed. If I say that this time is not an evening hour, I will be a denier, but not a kafir?
Mirza Nasir: No, a denier of the prophethood of Mirza Sahib.
Attorney-General: Whoever denies his prophethood is a kafir?
Mirza Nasir: How can we say about a denier that he accepts?
Attorney-General: What do you say, is a denier of Mirza’s prophethood a kafir or not?
Mirza Nasir: In one meaning he is, in another, he is not; i.e. Political and dictionary.
Attorney-General: A person denies Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and so is a political kafir. So, can prayer be offered behind a political kafir? As we know, prayer is not allowed behind an Islamic kafir, but what about a political kafir?
Mirza Nasir: This is a separate issue.
Attorney-General: But it has to be solved. I am just giving an example here.
Mirza Nasir: And that is, a sect announces that pray behind me . . .
Attorney-General: And they are political kafirs?
Mirza Nasir: No no, see, Deobandis say that people of the Ahmadi sect should not offer prayers behind us, so we will not do so to avoid fitna [conflict and tribulation]
Attorney-General: According to your belief, a person whom you call Kafir because he does not accept Mirza, and is outside the circle of Islam, then . . .
Mirza Nasir: “ourside the circle of Islam” — I have never read this in the Qur’an.
Attorney-General: When you use this phrase, in what sense do you do it?
Mirza Nasir: I do not use it.
Attorney-General: Your father, grandfather, brothers, Jama’at – all say that he who does not accept Mirza is outside the circle of Islam?
Mirza Nasir: According to me, I cannot be sure. If you ask me, I will continue to say until the Day of Judgement – “culpable”.
Attorney-General: If they are culpable then they will be kafir, and also sinners. In which category do you put them?
Mirza Nasir: In the “culpable” category.
Attorney-General: In the “culpable” category, are kafirs and sinners all equal to you?
Mirza Nasir: A kafir is a sinner and does not obey the order of God and the orders of a prophet – he is a kafir sinner; how can other sinners be kafirs?
Attorney-General: Mirza Sahib, every sinner is not a kafir, but every kafir is a sinner?
Mirza Nasir: Every kafir is a sinner.
Attorney-General: So one who denies Mirza is a kafir sinner?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, a kafir, sinner and culpable.
Attorney-General: OK, culpable – so, someone is more and someone is less – someone has more punishment, someone less?
Mirza Nasir: Punishment is not my job. Allah, the Exalted, will make that decision.
Attorney-General: A sinner can enter Paradise, but a kafir cannot?
Mirza Nasir: Again, this is a matter of controversy that has arisen. According to us, Hell is not eternal and a kafir can also enter Paradise.
Attorney-General: According to the Qur’an and Hadith, a kafir exits the circle of Islam.
Mirza Nasir: There is no idiom ‘circle of Islam’ in Qur’an and Hadith.
Attorney-General: Does he remain a Muslim? If he does not remain a Muslim, he does not stay within the circle of Islam. It is in one Hadith – and if you do not accept Hadith, then your father has said it, you should accept that. I have in my hand his book – your father’s – he says that whoever does not accept Mirza are expelled from the circle of Islam.
Mirza Nasir: There is a difference between one type of kufr and another. One type of kufr expels from the nation; and there is another type of kufr that does not expel from the nation. Whoever denies the kalima [“There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger”] is expelled from the nation.
Attorney-General: And one who denies Mirza’s prophethood is not expelled from the nation?
Mirza Nasir: No, he is not.
Attorney-General: On one hand is your testimony here, and on the other hand is your father’s testimony before the Munir Commission. As there is a difference between the two, then who would be right?
Mirza Nasir: My father said that before the Munir Commission, but he also talked [about this] in other places. All these have to be looked at.
Attorney-General: [These are] records, testimony and arguments before a court?
Mirza Nasir: I don’t know what my father said, but I do not consider expelled from the nation.
Attorney-General: If a person denise Eesa (peace be on him) [Jesus], is he a political kafir or a an Islamic kafir?
Mirza Nasir: A person who does not accept the decisions of the Qur’an is nevertheless a political Muslim.
Attorney-General: A person accepts all the injunctions of Allah, the Exalted, but does not believe in Eesa (peace be on him) [Jesus]?
Mirza Nasir: He is a rebel against the Qur’an.
Attorney-General: Is he a kafir?
Mirza Nasir: Who do you define as a kafir?
Attorney-General: He who is not considered a Muslim; he who exits the Islamic nation; as such, what will be the denier of Eesa (peace be on him) [Jesus]?
Mirza Nasir: He will exit the Islamic nation.
Attorney-General: And who does not accept Mirza?
Mirza Nasir: He is culpable.
Attorney-General: Has he exited the Islamic nation?
Mirza Nasir: He has not left in political terms.
Attorney-General: Has he exited in real terms?
Mirza Nasir: Yes.
Attorney-General: Not only “yes”; please say clearly, “he has exited”.
Mirza Nasir: I have said already that he is a kafir in one sense, and Muslim in another [sense].
Attorney-General: What about a person does not believe in Nabi (peace be on him) [Muhammad]?
Mirza Nasir: He is an ignorant man.
Attorney-General: Does he become a kafir or not?
Mirza Nasir: He will exit the Islamic nation in the political sense, and not in the other sense.
Attorney-General: So, a denier of the Noble Prophet (saw) is a Muslim?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, he who calls himself a Muslim remains a Muslim.
Attorney-General: According to you?
Mirza Nasir: Leave it, what argument you have started? People don’t even now the Kalima Tayyiba [basic creed of Muslims and which contains the words 'Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah'].
Attorney-General: This is exactly what I am saying: one who does not know the kalima, does not accept Eesa (peace be on him) [Jesus], does not accept the injunctions of Allah – will he exit the Islamic nation?
Mirza Nasir: He will exit in political terms. No, no – it should be said that ‘absolutely, he will exit’.
Attorney-General: One who denies the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, will he exit?
Mirza Nasir: He who does not accept the order of Allah, does exit.
Attorney-General: It is the order of Allah that ‘accept Mirza’ – a person does not accept?
Mirza Nasir: He will exit just like he exited before.
Attorney-General: Even if a person has not even heard the name of Eesa (peace be on him) [Jesus] – if such a person does not accept, then?
Mirza Nasir: He will not exit politically, but will be a Muslim.
Attorney-General: Your father said that one who has not even heard the name of Mirza is also a kafir – what does that mean?
Mirza Nasir: It is clear.
Attorney-General: That Mirza’s denier is a kafir?
Mirza Nasir: In the sense that I said it.
Attorney-General: And the sense in which your father said it?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, that too.
Attorney-General: Your father said, “All Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to the Promised Messiah, even if they have not heard of the name of the Promised Messiah, are also kafir and expelled from the circle of Islam”.
Mirza Nasir: I will let you know after I see the book.
Attorney-General: It is your father’s book, Aina Sadaqat, page 35.
Chairman: What did he say in this book?
Attorney-General: That, “All Muslims who have not pledged allegiance to the Promised Messiah, even if they have not heard of the name of the Promised Messiah, are also kafir and expelled from the circle of Islam”
Mirza Nasir: He has told of two types of kufr [being a kafir]. This is the same thing that he said to the Munir Commission: “they will be political kafirs”.
Attorney-General: And these members of the assembly who do not accept Mirza?
Mirza Nasir: I have said it already.
Attorney-General: Munir Commission’s book [report]. I will read out pages 218 and 219.
Mirza Nasir: Don’t read it. You have told me the page number. It is enough.
Attorney-General: Don’t be anxious. OK, I will not read it. But when you say that so-and-so is a kafir, what impression that does leave on common people?
Mirza Nasir: When is it said?
Attorney-General: Like in England, that so-and-so is a kafir – what is the meaning of kafir in such statements?
Mirza Nasir: I talk about my belief. If Justice Munir or any other person who does not accept it has his own opinion. I only talk for myself.
Attorney-General: But your Mirza Bashir Sahib said, “A person who accepts Moosa [Moses] but does not accept Eesa [Jesus]; or accepts Eesa but does not accept Muhammad (saw); or accepts Muhammad but does not accept the Promised Messiah – he is not only a kafir, but a hardened kafir and expelled from the circle of Islam.” (Kalimatul Fasl page 110, Mirza Bashir s/o Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani).
Mirza Nasir: So, [the mention of] circle of Islam is there.
Attorney-General: Is he kafir and expelled only in the political sense?
Mirza Nasir: That is the answer.
Attorney-General: So he is a hardened kafir and expelled in the political sense?
Mirza Nasir: That is it.
Attorney-General: A person accepts Eesa (peace be on him), accepts Ibrahim (peace be on him), but does not accept Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) – becomes a Muslim?
Mirza Nasir: No, no, how can he be? How can the denier of Nabi (peace be on him) be a Muslim?
Attorney-General: [Because] he does not believe in one prophet.
Mirza Nasir: No, how can he be a Muslim?
Attorney-General: Is he absolutely a kafir?
Mirza Nasir: Whatever you say, he is not even worthy of being called a human being.
Attorney-General: That is, he will not be called as a Muslim within the circle of Islam?
Mirza Nasir: If he does not accept the Noble Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), how can he be in the circle of Islam?
Attorney-General: If he does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, will he be in it?
Mirza Nasir: He who does not accept – now it is a discussion of two circles – he will be inside one circle, but does not enter the second one.
Attorney-General: OK, there are two circles: so, “non-Ahmadis” who do not accept Mirza as a prophet are expelled from one circle of Islam, that is are kafirs. In Alfazl (26-28 June, 1922), there is, “Because we believe in Mirza as a prophet and non-Ahmadis do not believe him to be a prophet, therefore – according to the teaching of the Qur’an that the denial of any prophet is kufr – non-Ahmadis are kafirs”?
Mirza Nasir: This has been asked before and I have replied to it.
Chairman: One thing should be clarified: is this admitted by him?
Attorney-General: It has not been denied.
Mirza Nasir: Give me [the reference]. I will check it out.
Attorney-General: You have the complete file.
Mirza Nasir: Which reference is this?
Attorney-General: 26-29 June, 1922. The next one is page 89 of Anwar-i-Khilafat by Mirza Mahmud: “Hazrat Promised Messiah has strongly urged that prayers should not be said behind any non-Ahmadi. However many times you ask, this will be my answer. Prayer should not be said behind a non-Ahmadi. It is NOT, NOT, NOT legal”.
Mirza Nasir: I have said this in Mehzar-Nama. You tell me: why non-Ahmadis don’t pray behind Ahmadis?
Attorney-General: They consider you a kafir. So, you too do consider them kafir and as such do not do so?
Mirza Nasir: There are many reasons. This is one of them.
Attorney-General: No, this is not, I will tell you. In “Anwar-i-Khilafat”, page 90: “It is our duty that we not consider non-Ahmadis as Muslims and do not say prayer behind them because to us they are the deniers of one of God’s prophets.
Mirza Nasir: Now you have started the topic of prayer.
Attorney-General: Because they deny a prophet, it is not legal to say prayer behind non-Ahmadis?
Mirza Nasir: So, it is OK.
Attorney-General: A person announces that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a kafir, will you not call such a person ‘kafir’? Even if two hundred say it, or 20 million, or 200 million Muslims, will you consider all of them kafirs — if they do not announce that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet?
Mirza Nasir: As they are not fulfillling the criteria of faith, they are culpable in front of God and expelled from the Islamic nation.
Attorney-General: And one who does not say, [he is a] kafir.
Mirza Nasir: They are not.
Attorney-General: See, you say that ‘he is not’. Your father said that whoever did not accept Mirza, even if he had not heard his name, is a kafir and expelled from the circle of Islam.
Mirza Nasir: Ye, he too – in a certain sense.
Attorney-General: All Muslims – kafir?
Mirza Nasir: Those not pledging allegiance to the Promised Messiah.
Attorney-General: That is, all others, except Ahmadis, are all kafir and expelled from the circle of Islam?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, included in the Islamic nation and outside the circle of Islam.
Attorney-General: That is – carrying the label of “Muslim” but in reality they are kafir and expelled from Islam?
Mirza Nasir: Yes, they will be expelled from the circle of Islam.
Attorney-General: In your books . . .
Mirza Nasir: Just give me the reference, do not read the text, I will check it.
Attorney-General: For now, just check “Anwar-i-Khilafat” and “Aina-e-Sadaqat” by your father. I have not referred to any other.
Chairman: (to delegation) You should go. Tomorrow morning.
Maulana Shah Ahmad Nurani: Mirzais sometimes nod their heads which does not become part of the record. Please check that when they reply, it is on the record. He gives the answer sitting down.
A Member: The Attorney-General should also ask questions sitting down.
Maulana Shah Ahmad Nurani: The Attorney-General would be getting frustrated. So, he should ask questions sitting down or he replies standing up.
Attorney-General: I am allowed to ask questions sitting down, but I myself want to ask questions standing up.
Maulana Shah Ahmad Nurani: So, he should answer standing up. If the members ask questions standing up, the answers should also be given standing up.
Chairman: But this is a Special Committee of the National Assembly.
Maulana Shah Ahmad Nurani: But a witness does not have the right to sit down in court.
Chairman: Let him be – ask him what is going on with him.
Chairman: Mr. Abdul Aziz Bhatti?
Abdul Aziz Bhatti: Sir, I want to say respectfully: he avoids direct answers to the questions put to him, repeats himself and tries to find a way of deceit. I think it is the duty of the Chairman to bind him to direct answers and does not engage in debate.
Shah Sahib: I respectfully say that until he gives a clear answer, do not let it proceed so that he can not be deceitful.
Chairman: Today is the first day, there will be short-cutting later.
Maulana Ghulam Ghaus Hazarvi: Today he called as kafirs the deniers of Mirza and that they are excluded from Islam. We should all think that he calls us “kafir” and we continue spending time discussing him – is there a reason to?
Chairman: This is a special committee. You gentlemen have made a procedure – let it proceed. What is the rush?
Maulana Ghulam Ghaus: Let it be, and allow ourselves, and the whole Islamic nation, to be subjected to religious decrees of being ‘kafir’? He is bound to answer the questions put to him by the Attorney-General.
Chairman: If the Attorney-General thinks so, he can request the attention of the President.
Attorney-General: He does not need to answer any question. You gentlemen, as judges, should note the demeanour and style of the witness. His hesitation, his avoiding answering questions – you can all compile your results from all this. Keep deducing – appropriate or unfavourable – note every thing and then yourself make the right decision.
Chairman: I want to remind members of one thing: we are obtaining the opinion of the witness. The opinion of the witness, according to the law of testimony, is important.
Aziz Bhatti: The demeanour and style of the witness and what methodology he adopts: how can this be recorded? Only words are being recorded.
Chairman: You see – it is being recorded.
Haji Maula Baksh Somro: It is my humble request that you are a big man and I applaud your patience, but I will say: do not allow him a free hand. He is beating about the bush in his answers. The same question has to be repeated multiple times, even in one breath. We are getting frustrated. I applaud your patience, but he should be admonished by the President to avoid this.
Atalaeeq Ali Shah: Sir, obtain a clear answer – non-obscure – yes or no – do not prolong it.
Chairman: It is the first day. We will short-cut.
Maulana Ghulam Ghaus: The deniers of Mirza are expelled from the circle of Islam. Do not let him forget it – ask it to be noted repeatedly – it is an important point.
Chairman: Tomorrow morning, 10 a.m.